Girls Twiddling Knobs
The #1 feminist music tech podcast, featuring deep-diving episodes into all things music production and home recording and fascinating guest episodes with women making music with technology, hosted by Isobel Anderson.
Girls Twiddling Knobs
Music Tech & Gender Today: Live from Strongroom Studios
The room glowed with warm orange light, a full house gathered to celebrate five years of Girls Twiddling Knobs and to witness a bold closing chapter. We brought a live panel to the stage to ask a deceptively simple question: are music technology skills truly crucial for women and gender-diverse artists? What followed was honest, funny, and disarmingly practical—stories about safety in studios, DIY learning, pricing your worth, and the power of choosing collaborators who actually listen.
Karen Sutton (Oram Awards) mapped the tough terrain of funding and why mentoring fills the gaps that DIY routes can’t always bridge. Rooks, aka Jenny Bulcraig (2% Rising), shared how artists are rejecting microaggressions and confusion in sessions in favor of producers who offer clarity, consent, and better results. afromerm, aka Cecilia Morgan, unpacked how growing technical fluency turns doubt into calm agency on stage, even when met with patronising questions. Glade Marie (Saffron) spoke to intuition, community, and using brand gigs to bankroll creative freedom without apology. Together, we explored how tech skills change careers, why safer spaces are non-negotiable, and how to build sustainable models when institutions look away.
We don’t pretend the landscape is fair. Arts funding is shaky. Industry gatekeepers still overlook what doesn’t fit a KPI. But the path forward is clear: learn the tools that center your voice, set boundaries around money and time, and build the rooms where more of us can thrive. As we prepare a short final season—answering why we’re closing and what we’ve learned—we’re archiving the work and passing the torch to the many initiatives pushing this movement forward.
If you’ve ever felt othered in a studio, underpaid for your craft, or unsure how to start charging for your expertise, this conversation is a compass. Listen, share, and tell us the boundary you’re setting next. And if this resonated, subscribe, leave a review, and send the episode to a friend who needs it.
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Girls Twiddling Knobs is hosted by Isobel Anderson and produced by Isobel Anderson and Jade Bailey.
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Hello knob twiddlers. I'm back. In your ears after quite a long time. The last time I recorded a podcast for you, it was the Time Loops episode we did featuring Shiva Feshercki and Sarah Anglis, amongst many other people. It was the season six finale, and since that time, many months have passed, certainly many weeks, a few months have passed. And so I'm dropping in with another episode, which I'm excited to share with you. Just to give you some context, unless you're part of our email list or on our socials, you may not know that at the end of this year, Girls Striddling Knobs will be closing. And that means that there will be no more podcast episodes, there will be no more live music tech programs, and there will be no more live communities. I'm working to get it secured archived online somewhere so you can still freely access it. But certainly for 2026, you can still tune in on all of your podcast listening apps. It is archived already at the British Library. Um, and our website will stay live as well in 2026, but we will not be doing anything live. Um, we won't be doing any programmes or any new podcast episodes. So I'm sure a lot of you already knew that, but I wanted to just share it here on the podcast as well. And it also brings context to the episode that I'm sharing because this episode is a live panel discussion which was taken from the event that we had last week on November the 5th in Strongroom Studios, which was to celebrate Five Years of Girls Twiddling Knobs, but also mark the closure of this incredible project, which has been the main focus of my life for the last five years, and that I know has impacted many, many hundreds, if not potentially thousands, of women and gender diverse artists out there. So we had a beautiful gathering at Strong Room. Um, we had really lovely warm orange light that made it feel like we were in some kind of warm cave or womb. There are over a hundred people came, so it was this really lovely atmosphere, really buzzing and full. Everyone there was just really lovely. Um and we had a full moon letting go ritual because it was a full moon, and that was just coincidence, but it was very appropriate. Um we also had a live set from the incredible AfroMurm, who is an award Aurum Award-winning artist and sound artist and composer and performer. So AfroMerm did a really mesmerizing live set. And then we had a panel discussion, and the panel discussion featured um Karen Sutton from the Aurum Awards, um, who's the director of the Oram Awards, um, Rooks, aka Jenny Wool Craig, who some of you will remember was actually on the podcast, um, and a separate guest interview episode I did with her. That was about a couple of years ago now. So it was interesting to have Jenny back and to be hearing from her a couple of years on. Um, but she was wrapping not just her own production service but 2% rising, which she co-founded. And we also had Glade Marie, who is a DJ and producer, but also is an ambassador for Saffron Studios, who are an amazing organisation based in Bristol, who offer DJing workshops, music production workshops, mixing workshops, um, and have been going for 10 years. They actually celebrated their 10-year anniversary in September, which is very, very cool. And then we also had AfroM aka Cecilia Morgan join the panel too to talk about her experiences as an artist as well. So, I mean, everyone on that stage, on that panel stage, was an or had been or is an artist in some capacity, but also um working in this space of um gender diversity and inclusion in music tech. And because it was such a rich conversation, and the people who turned up on Wednesday got so much from the conversation, I wanted to share it here as with you because I think you'll find it interesting. Um, the the title of the panel is or was Um, are music tech skills really crucial for your career as a woman of music? And I mean, as I say in the panel discussion you'll hear in a minute, it's kind of a almost a pointless question in that room, because basically everyone's going to agree, yes, or they should do, hopefully. But it really was a kind of opening basically to talking about why that is, what that work entails in terms of helping women and gender diverse people access those skills, the challenges that come from trying to do this work, and all of the rewards as well, and the opportunities that are there to be taken in that space. So that was the kind of premise of the panel. We opened up the discussion up for questions as well, which you'll hear in this discussion. And the questions were really, really great. They really opened up some great conversations about money and self-worth as a woman in music, um, amongst many other things. Um, so we covered a lot of ground and it was fun as well. You'll hear that there's a lot of laughter, um, gen gen genuine guttural belly laugh stuff. So it's, you know, as well as it being an important conversation, it was a playful, fun one too. So I'm gonna let you listen to the panel discussion now. It's about 45 minutes. I hope you enjoy it. And at the end of it, I'm just gonna share a little bit about what I'm gonna be sharing on the podcast leading up to the end of the year, when, like I said, girls twiddling knobs will um no longer be operational, but it will be available to listen to and archived. But I'll share a bit more about that after the panel discussion. So enjoy this discussion with Karen, Rooks, Sil, Afrima, and Glade, and I'll see you on the other side. So we're gonna start our panel. Um I really wanted this evening to not just be about girls twiddling knobs, because um I feel like it's really important to celebrate multiple initiatives that are all working towards a kind of similar goal, which is making music technology um more diverse and also inclusive for people of different genders. Um, I think that that work often can go unnoticed and unacknowledged, and I think that a lot of the time that work is happening with just um, you know, threads of resources, and it's really rare that we as initiatives and organizations get to be in the same place. And so when I was thinking about putting on this event, I only wanted to do it if I could actually get some of us in the same place. Um, so that's why there's so many um people involved in and initiatives and organizations involved in tonight who are all in that space of gender diversity, music technology, and lots of kind of slight kind of niche angles at how you uh work in that. So I'm gonna briefly introduce each panel member, um, and then we're gonna get into a little bit of a discussion. Um, and I'm gonna try and make it so there's a little bit of time for questions, but I'm also gonna be respectful of your Wednesday night. Um so I'm gonna kick off by introducing Karen Sutton. So, with over 20 years in the independent music industry as a sound engineer, label manager, and producer, she's now the director of the Oram Awards, supporting women and gender expansive artists. Supporting women and gender expansive artists through mentoring awards and an international community. These are really brief introductions, by the way. Um, and then next up is Rooks, um, also known as Jenny Bull Craig. So our next panelist, Rooks, is a producer, songwriter, and co-founder of 2% Rising, championing women, trans or non-binary talent in music production. Rooks has worked with artists across the spectrum supported by Help Musicians and the Music Producers Guild, and is based at BSMNT studio under Big Life Management. Then um we have AfroMum, aka Cecilia Morgan. So Afro Mum is the solo project of an Aurum Award-winning composer and sound artist, Cecilia Morgan, whose immersive electroacoustic work, blending field recordings, live instrumentation, and her self-built instrument Juniper, has been heard everywhere from Cafe Otto to the London Jazz Festival. And then last but certainly not least, Glade Marie is joining us too. Um, a London-based DJ, producer, and mentor who champions music of black origin and gender equality in the industry. Um Glade has collaborated with Nike, Adidas, and Formula One, played at Fabric, Cocoa and Drum Sheds, and is currently marketing manager for non-classical and brand ambassador for Saffron Music. So um I think what I'd like to do is first start with a really I guess that the title of this panel is really probably the answer is really obvious. So the title of the panel is Is Music Technology Skill, are music technology skills really crucial for your music career as a woman and gender diverse artist? So yeah, it's kind of like preaching the to the converted. So I feel like I'd like to actually start with you, Sil, because you literally just did it on stage very well. Um, can you just maybe tell us do you think that it has been crucial for your music career so far, having music tech skills?
SPEAKER_03:100%. Um I'm really grateful to have started quite young. I started producing when I was 15, and that felt like a power that I just continued to hone again and again because it I mean it it feels amazing, no, having kind of I think full creative control over how you sound and the more you learn, the more fine-tuned that control comes. And yeah, I think it's so crucial. I think it's so crucial. Even if you don't want to produce music, having that knowledge makes you a better collaborator, um, and just understand more kind of what what feels and sounds good to you.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um and Glade, um is that something that you would recognise in your own career?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I definitely would. I feel like early doors, not as much. I feel like there's a lot of um gates and like block doors to music tech in the early days. So I managed to make a name for myself outside of having any music tech skills. So I wouldn't say it was crucial early doors, but after the first five years of being like establishing yourself, you do need those skills to get into the next level of rooms, I believe. Um, so yeah, when I started learning more about how to uh yeah, self-produce and collaborate with people, um, I understood their language, therefore I could speak it. And I think unless you have those tools, you end up just being talent. And I think that there's an issue there. Um, but I think you can get really far with collaboration as well. So I don't think you need to know everything.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but I think it's a really good point that like it it does depend where you're operating and a stage of your career as well. Um Rook, so I want to come to you or Jenny, because you work a lot with artists who come in and you produce their work. Um, so you have a kind of different perspective in terms of actually being that collaborator. What's your point of view on this question? Like, do you think it's crucial for those artists who come to work with you to have those skills?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I've been on both sides of the coin here because I've been an artist, I've been a jobbing session musician, I've been, and now I've evolved into a producer who works with other artists almost exclusively making my living by making records. So from my perspective, over a 13 years' worth of experience, tech is the language of the studio. And as a space, studios broadly speaking, that has historically excluded and othered women and gender minorities. Um it's much easier to insert yourself into a culture if you know the language. And you do probably have to insert yourself into that space. Yeah, there's a lot. As if we haven't hummed enough today.
SPEAKER_04:We're all warmed up. Um, Karen, I would love for you to answer this question, but from the perspective of running the Oram Awards, and that there's been lots of artists now who've come through the awards. And you know, one of the premise of the awards is that it's people who are doing really innovative things with music technology. So it's not, it's not just doing anything with music technology, it's actually pushing boundaries.
SPEAKER_08:Oh yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_04:What do you see those skills, all that? Um what do you see those skills changing in those artists' careers for them?
SPEAKER_08:It's um it's really interesting. Obviously, our awards are for innovation in sound music and technology. Um, and we are supporting artists that can't be boxed into a category or a genre. Um, so instrument designers to sound artists. Um but I think music tech for the artists that we support, I would say that probably 80% of them are doing it or have learnt it DIY. They've done it themselves, they've gone out, they've been, you know, part of things like Gold Twiggling Knobs and they've uh and and saffron and gone out and been um proactive themselves in learning. But then they get to a stage where there are gaps and they can't get a little bit further without having upskilled a little bit more in tech or production. So that's what we're trying to, you know, support them through mentoring or you know, enabling them to, you know, get some skills with Ableton or Max MSP just to make their live performances or their installations easier to and more transportable if you're on your own as a woman, you know, going from A to B up and down the country on a train. Um so yeah, so all of those things, um, yeah, those nuances, I think it is important, it is crucial, but there's still gaps in getting that bit further and um, you know, upscaling your performance or your art in that way.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um something I'm mindful of is that you know, most people on this panel have started with their own practice um of them being at the center of their music tech journey and now um at least in part that's turned outward to multiple other artists. So um I might come to you, Glade, first, but I wondered what has that taught you from working with other artists, especially gender-diverse artists and women. What has that taught you in terms of patterns that you see coming up again and again around music tech?
SPEAKER_02:I think the biggest pattern is probably imposter syndrome, which I'm sure everybody would ex not expect, but it's something that as a mentor you really try and get those feelings out early doors and ask everybody if they're safe and they feel deserving of the space. And I think a lot of people don't, and it's really sad, but also encouraging that a lot of people feel the same way. Um sorry. Um, so yeah, I think that's the most unfortunate pattern that I see building. Um, but I do believe that makes everybody a bit stronger because I think with that imposter syndrome comes the strive to beat it. And I don't think that that would exist in the same type of way if you just felt that you're so confident from the beginning in everything you do. Um, and I've witnessed that a lot of times where once they beat it and they've tapped into that confidence, it's so much stronger than someone who I've met who's just confident from the day they start. So yeah, I do think that that's a gift and a curse, but definitely a pattern when I'm teaching students for sure.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think that's a really good point, like a reassuring point for people that just because something doesn't feel easy or comfortable immediately, actually, sometimes that can you kind of grow even more.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and you try and beat it and you use it in your art. Um, and I think that yeah, that just makes an artist so much more powerful when they're actually having to engage with some sort of obstacle um in their art. And yes, I definitely think that it'll be a perfect world for nobody having Posser syndrome, but I don't think that the art would be quite as engaging if it didn't exist. So and it exists in certain communities for certain reasons which you don't really have like yeah, the the biggest amount of time to go into tonight. But yeah, I definitely see it in the communities we work with all the time.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. How about you, Jenny? When people come into the studio, what are the patterns that you are seeing, the conversations that keep coming up for you working with other artists?
SPEAKER_01:There is a recent one that I've really enjoyed, which I hope will be of encouragement. Um, if I mean, actually, just to get an idea, can I just get a whoop how many people are artists here? Okay, how many people are kind of looking to be become producers who work with artists? Okay, a smaller amount. That's all right. It's still it's still gonna benefit, I think, like a certain number of folks who are who are artists as well. There is definitely a shift taking place in terms of the fact that artists are now coming to terms with the fact that the music industry doesn't care about them very much. And um frankly. You get a lot of reactions to what you say, Jenny. Well, I don't have the thing is okay, this let me be very clear about this. I don't have any stock in the music industry as it currently stands because I built my business entirely separate from it. I I built it, thank you. I built it as a client-based service because I have a specialism in production, it's my hyperfixation, I want to do it every day. So I I went, I set out to build a business, not necessarily to make like making records, yes, is the thing, but I'm not I'm not pursuing a rock and roll dream. I'm pursuing a successful business. And because I chose to reframe it in that way, I was able to go full-time in two years. Okay. So artists are catching on to the fact that the music industry at large doesn't really care about them. How so because the internet is a tool that is a double-edged sword, one of the upsides of that is the fact that artists have figured out that they can build their own careers and are staying independent for longer. And this is also to do with the fact that the label's very gun shy and they only really want to put their bets on a safe thing so that they can hit their KPIs and kind of pay back their investors. Um, but it also means that artists are looking for a better experience in the studio. They're not necessarily prepared to be shunted into a corner by um, frankly, a grumpy cis man who won't let them touch anything and use their session time and their money to fulfill their unexplored rock and roll potential that they never got to do. Now I'm speaking quite directly from experience here because, and the reason that this is so interesting to me is because I I tend to get a lot of clients that find me as an activist before they find me as a producer, which is fine. I have no problem with that. I get paid either way. So and I get to make records either way. Um, so I I hear a lot. People people come to work with me because they feel safe with me as a producer, and because I I talk a lot about things like safety in studios, and I do it online, I do it as a 2% rising representative and as a as a producer as myself. Um, and so I hear all the stories of you know various kind of difficulties that artists have had in the studios. And more artists are coming to me because they are saying, I don't want to work with a cis man again. I'm so tired. I'm so tired of having to navigate their microaggressions, their egos, their mood swings in every single session. I just want to make my record. And I'm like, valid. And the this pendulum is now swinging so wide on this, particularly in the past 12 months for me, that I am now taking clients away from award-winning producers. Not because I'm going after them online and being like, I'll have your confidence. Like, I'm not doing that. They are literally finding me and saying, oh dear God, I just want a better experience than last time. And the bar is in hell. So it's not that hard. Like I'm literally just doing my job. Hopefully well. But that's all I'm doing is just do it, doing my job and also prioritizing um just high quality of experience in the studio. The fact that everyone is clear on the financial element and everyone is having fun so that everyone knows exactly what they're getting when they turn up for every session. Um, so that's that's a trend that I've witnessed in my particular niche is the fact that artists are getting a bit tired of being treated like crap and are seeking out better experiences for themselves in terms of their collaborators.
SPEAKER_04:Um so, like on that on that point, Zill, how do you think your experiences working with people in studios or you know, situations even like live gigs, etc., how how do you think that has shifted and changed as your skills with music technology have grown? And do you recognise what Jenny was just saying in there being a shift? And maybe for you as an artist, like noticing this, just being more um articulating what you being able to articulate what's not working and what is working, and then finding something different.
SPEAKER_03:I think ideally there would have been more of a shift than there has been. I think early on um when I was still had a lot to learn, um, a lot of my experiences um with not all, but many audio engineers that I've worked with in a live context. Um I was met with kind of quite patronizing, um undermining energy and like a very domineering, um like a kind of patriotic one, you know, I I want to care for I just want to make sure you know what an XLR cable is. I really want to make sure. Um and then you know, now I you know I come in with all my sorry, I come in with all my stuff and um there's a lot, there's a lot going on. And still I'd say maybe 60% of the time they're like, so okay, um you know what cables you're using to go uh go out? Like, do you do you know what's going on? And there's I think I met with doubt a lot more than one might expect considering the setup that I arrive with, but I think what I meet that with is a level of calm and self-assurance that I didn't have in the past. I think in the past it made me really angry, which is completely justifiable. Um, but um I think arriving knowing that you know your stuff allows you to kind of meet those experiences with I guess some level of zen so that you can conserve your energy and do a really good gig regardless. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um I'm gonna kind of switch to like what it takes to start an initiative that is supporting um women and gender-diverse people in this area of music technology before we then move on to hopefully some questions from you all as well. So I want to come to um to Karen um first. And I want to ask you what do you think are some of the biggest challenges for initiatives like the Oram Awards, like Girls Twiddling Knobs, like Yorkshire Sound Women Network, like 2% rising, although Jenny can obviously speak to that, like Saffron, of course, you know, Glade, you can probably speak to that too. What do you think are some of the biggest challenges for us as we move forward?
SPEAKER_08:I think it's still funding. You know, I think we are still on uh a really um anxiety-inducing, even like eight years into doing the Orem awards. Um, and you know, we've we've supported over 52 artists and a wider community. And um, you know, we've done mentoring, we've done live shows, we are we call ourselves nomadic, so we uh we partner with a different festival, like-minded institution or a venue that is a safer space for artists to perform in each year. We move around the country. Uh, you know, we are in Sheffield, then we're in Huddersfield, then we're in London, then we're in Margate, which makes it incredibly hard when we go for funding because we're always moving about. Um, but it's one of our, you know, it's one of our tenants, you know. We are, we are, you know, nationwide and now global. Um, and that makes it really hard. And we're still having to apply for funding every year for every single part of what we want to do. And of course, my ideas and the ideas of what we want to do are like, and we want to do this and we could do that. And also listening to the artists and through the mentoring, we know there's such a need for this, there's so much need for the support. And why are we still chasing our tail as an as a program for supporting women and gender diverse artists when we know and we've been working so hard at it, and it's yeah, it's it's anxiety juicing. So I would say the number one thing still is sadly funding. Um, so yeah, you know, the music industry, you're right, we can't rely on them, but like we can't rely on the arts, arts funding in the UK either. So, what's left? You know, tech, what's left? Patrons, what is left? Allies, artists, that's who we need to like, you know, put their hands deeply in their pockets and support what we do. So yeah. Amen.
SPEAKER_04:Jenny, you started 2% rising with Katie Tavini. Yep. What have been the biggest challenges for you both? Because I know that you're operating in a different model to say Orems, Girl Swiddling Knobs, Saffron. I think one of the things that is I nerd out on a bit is all the different models that there are, which I know may not be interesting to other people. But for you both, um, because it started very much as a Facebook group network.
SPEAKER_01:It started because we were lonely.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And what what were the what were the challenges for you starting and then sustaining that?
SPEAKER_01:Sustaining has been the big the biggest issue. Starting it was never a problem. We knew almost straight away that we were gonna find people. Because when I say we were lonely, we were like Katie and I met in 2017, I think, or 2018, because the couple still signed then. But um we met and worked together as as artist and mastering engineer. And I'm guessing a bunch of you know who Katie Savini is, yeah, besides my boo. Um my my batonic love. Um so we were kind of in this position where we just got to know each other through working together, and we were just having very, very long phone calls that were cutting into our work hours, just bitching about the stuff we just kept running into over and over and over again. And I was starting to move into a more production space by that point, um, although I hadn't kind of firmly made the decision to become a producer. And we just decided we were like, we need more mates, we need more people who are like us in the tech space, in the music industry, in the studio space, in the engineering space. Um, because we counted and between us, and bearing in mind, Katie has had a much more prolific career than me, because she started before I did. And um, I'm very proud of her. But she, even between us, we came up with maybe 10 people who were women, non-binary and and trans who were working in audio technology um studio environments. And so we decided that we were just gonna like create a Facebook group because that was the fastest, most accessible thing to us at the time. Like, I mean, eventually we had this conversation in kind of like 2019, early 2020, right before the pandemic, two weeks before the pandemic, we started it. Oh, we were so naive. Um and we found 50 people overnight, and we got so excited by 50 people because that's how lonely we were. We were like, oh my goodness, other women, other people like us. Um, and so we were like, right, cool, we've done it, we've won. We found, we found our gang, problem solved. And then by the end of the week, it was 150 people. And we were like, oh, okay. So what we did was we created an accident that just kept going because we were we were being open about something that we needed, which was to find connection with people who were like us who could share our experience, um, partly to find more people to bitch with, but also to find more people to work with, who were not just cis straight white men. Um, at the time we called ourselves 2% rising because the 2018 billboard um kind of rammed up of the number of not just not even gender minorities, but women who made up the commercial whole of producers of the top 100 that year was 2%. Which was a number that made us want to hurl. And so we called ourselves 2% rising as like, right, well, this is Grand Zero. Let's see if we can encourage people. And because we started it two weeks before the pandemic, everyone was then forced onto the internet because no one could leave the house. So that's why it grew and grew and grew. We have 1,300 members now. Um, and we haven't taken it figured out a way to take it off Facebook just yet because we don't really like the meta wanker. And um we feel like we probably should find a different space for it, but it's still at present, it's still the most accessible space, and everyone's kind of already there. So we've just kept it there. And in the end, we decided we we had three main goals, which was to help identify help people to identify each other, who like music makers, producers, engineers, and be like, oh look, more of us. Uh which is very similar to kind of what you've also achieved with girls, twiddling knobs and also saffron and also borum. Um, but then we also wanted to create a kind of business incubator to allow people to collaborate together. And thirdly, we wanted to try and resource people as much as we could. So we started listening parties. We were the first listening parties online. And yes, uh, we started our first one about three weeks, four weeks into the pandemic, and we also did skill shares because something we realized quite rapidly was that anytime any um any women or gender minorities were taking training about production and studio space from uh experts, it was always men, and there's a power dynamic there that needs to go. Like, you know, women and gender minorities need to learn from more women and gender minorities. We need to pass, there needs to be a sense of of kind of peer mentorship as well that was available. Um, and so uh basically after a couple of years, we realized it was kind of just sustaining itself. We didn't necessarily have to shepherd it so hard anymore. And also neither neither Katie nor myself could really comprehend how our own careers would take off as a result of us creating that space. Um and we now have met, we've had so many clients and collaborators and colleagues that we've met, including several in this room, um, who are my friends and colleagues and clients now and collaborators. So we couldn't have so we were now having to spend a hell of a lot more plates than we were before. So, you know, we've both been trying to navigate not burning out and being clear with ourselves, with each other, and also with the community about where our umbo, hello risers, uh, about where our kind of our time, energy, resources that we can offer begins and ends. And sometimes that that's not an easy conversation because a lot of the time when you make yourself visible and you're doing something good, people want you to do the thing that they think is the right thing to do. Whether it's an idea or a bit another branch of a business or a subgroup, and and sometimes people get frustrated because they're like, well, you could be doing these things, and we're like, yes, but we're tired. We also need to go to sleep and get up. And and you know, and as as well, like neither of us are in a position where we have to do childcare, but that's also a factor that a lot of our kind of um our colleagues have had to navigate who are in music and in activism as well. And so that adds a whole nother layer of you know, of stuff. So we have we have basically allowed it to exist as a space online where people can now come and ask what they would be afraid to ask if they were in a studio. And there are now hundreds, if not thousands, of responses to questions. So you can just use the search bar in there and your question's probably been asked, and the answer's probably already here. So it has sort of become its own self-sustaining resource, and we would love to do more with it, and we've kind of discussed what that might look like in the future, but yeah, we've we've always we've had to accept specifically in the past couple of years that sustainability is is a question mark.
SPEAKER_04:Um, I can really relate to um a challenge being money and then also a challenge being boundaries and managing expectations and all of those things. And doing that on uh, you know, some a lot of the time a shoestring budget too. Although, like I said, you know, all of these organizations are financed in completely different ways. Um, that's another conversation, but I do think it's really interesting because it's about how do we make social change, that's a really important part of it. Um, but one other thing that I'll add, and actually you you kind of um mentioned it briefly, Karen, but I think one of the biggest challenges that I have found with girls twiddling knobs is the lack of interest from the industry or even from the art sector. And it kind of feels like it doesn't matter what you do, you know. I can reel out the stats and the numbers and the impressive um achievements, they don't care, they really maybe I'm just bitter. I am closing it, but I probably am a bit bitter, but it kind of feels like they don't care. And I I just want to kind of say, I know what it's like as an artist because before this, for 20 years, I was an artist. Um if you find that you, you know, you're kind of emailing and contacting press and the industry and you get nothing back. I have that too all the fucking time with girls twiddling knobs. Doesn't matter who's on the next season of the podcast, doesn't matter how many downloads we have, it doesn't matter how many thousands of people are in our audience, they don't care. And that's a massive fucking problem. And this is what I mean about if I was to go back and do it all over again, I would make a much bigger effort to involve male allies because sadly they are still the gatekeepers, and unless you have them on your side, you're not gonna get in. And it's a hundred percent who you know, not what you do. Um, so that's a part of what I was saying about being really uh careful with your energy, being really realistic about where that's where that's actually gonna be recognized and appreciated, preserving it. Um, because unfortunately, the creative industries and even the the kind of creative sector in terms of funding and national funding and all that kind of stuff, it's very nephatistic still. I know you know that, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Can I offer a small response to that, which may add some hope to this kind of situation because we are a little bit all a bit meh, you know, but to a certain extent that needs to happen because you're because this, you know, we all we need the catharsis of honesty in this room about what we're really dealing with in terms of the landscape. But something we said in the early the kind of the first year of 2% rising was build your own castles, was the idea of like we're all here because we we want to make stuff and we want to earn a living. And those two things don't have to be kind of separate from one another if you stop trying to please the people who exclude you, which is tough. Like we all, we all we're all fucking daddy issues, don't we? But like, you know, we're all we've all got like some version of this, which fuels a lot of imposter syndrome that you you kind of spoke about earlier. It's our trauma getting the way in the way of our confidence, but also it's to do with this idea that like the music industry, we talk about it like it's a monolith. It isn't, it's a it's a it's a huge kind of network of businesses and businesses open and businesses fold all the time. And so if if we can kind of get a hold a little bit of the idea that it doesn't really matter if they pay attention. Because the thing is they will start to when they think they can make money from what you're doing. That's usually that is that is primarily how it works. Um, and if they think they can, then they might they might put themselves in your eye line and kind of try to like wangle their way into your attention. But also, if they underestimate you, you keep all the money.
SPEAKER_04:What add to that? It's yes, up to a point. So basically, like the last half decade, I haven't given a fuck about any of that. And I've done it completely outside of the industry, and I've done it entirely on my terms. But there does come a point where it's really, really hard. Like, why could I not get anyone to sponsor this event? Why? That's outrageous. Like, not to sound like a brat, but fuck me. Like, it's that. Why could I not get anyone to sponsor the podcast? It wouldn't, it wouldn't touch the sides for a lot of these organizations, for a lot of these businesses. And when you get that support and that backing, people take notice, they take you seriously, you get a little bit of financial influx that helps you to grow a bit bigger. It stops being a constant pedaling under the water. So I think you're right, but once you get to a certain stage, it is really important. And also when you really want to kind of go beyond a little community and make that bigger impact, it is still really important. So um, I want to throw it out to you. Um you can ask us anything. Um, it could be about the actual question that this panel is about. It could be that there's people here who want to start or are starting their own initiative and want to pick people's brains. It could be people wanting to ask about things to do with being an artist. Um does anyone have any questions?
SPEAKER_07:Hi, thank you very much for your thoughts. Um, you've spoken a lot about how uh women and gender minorities have moved into production and expanded the limitations uh of what's been gone before. But I think the the big thing here, and particularly on a Taurus full moon, when are we going to start taking responsibility for our own resources, our own funding of ourselves, and stop having a conversation of expecting outside people to fund us? We're producing things ourselves. Why aren't why don't we start producing the money ourselves? For me, these aren't technical skills, these are skills about money, mindset, capacity. And there are skills that are necessary to all businesses, not just to do with music. But I think uh creatives, we haven't taken responsibility collectively for being responsible for resourcing ourselves. So I'll say that on a Taurus full moon.
SPEAKER_04:And what would be really helpful is when you ask a question, can you say who you'd like to put that to? No one's gonna be offended if you don't pick us, it just helps.
SPEAKER_07:Um I I think um to the people that are involved in organisations, um, particularly, uh particularly to you, sorry, I can't remember your name. Karen. Karen. Um and um there's something else I was gonna say. Um, yeah, because I think part of the music uh scope and production scope is teaching creatives about money. I run a book club, free book club for people actually about money, but I I'm doing it actually because of being a creative person.
SPEAKER_01:You're my hero.
SPEAKER_07:But I think it's a conversation we need to have, and there are people, particularly Ann Wilson, who's uh a multimillionaire written The Wells Chef, and there's nobody coming to save us. There's no fucking arts council. Why should there be? We're responsible for our own funding, and this is a way to cut through the nepotism. It is irrelevant. We're responsible for ourselves.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, very provocative statement. Love it. Karen, Karen, please, could you respond to that?
SPEAKER_08:That's such a strong question. Um, on a full moon. Um, but you're right in lots of ways, but I think um you we do as an organization, I can only speak from the Orams, um, we rely on funding outside of what we do, but that's because the music industry is so fucked that artists can't earn a living, the industry is broken. We can't uh even the artists that you know we work with, if they're doing even a tour, they'll maybe make ends meet, but maybe not. They might have a job as a barista as well. Um, so yes, we need to self-fund and we need to find ways, but we need to do it together. We can't do it on our own because um people need to be like skilled and give given mentoring around bookkeeping, around running their own business. I mean, that's my background is finance and business for creatives. I go out and I'm a freelance consultant and I help creatives stop digging their head in the sand and go, you can do this, we can do this, you can do this together, you can make this project work, just don't do all the other things, just do one thing. Um, so it's more support, more support from the communities that we are building. Um, and I think there is a way to enable people to be more self-sufficient, but we can't rely on, you know, we can't rely on the music industry, you can't rely on making money from selling records, um, playing live. Um grassroot venues are on their knees, um, safer spaces that you know we work in a lot, we work in lots of queer-led, um, safer space venues because they are full of the right community and everybody is there. Like we work with Gut Level in Sheffield, they've got a very interesting model, which is a membership model for their venue. Um, so everybody pays a venue, a very small membership, and that means that everybody that walks through that door is invested in that venue. So anything that goes on from like the soup kitchens that they do on a Tuesday to the nights that we do, the experimental stuff, to the grime nights that they do there, um that's a beautiful model, and that's one that is working really, really well. So there are different models and there are different ways, but yeah, it's a huge question, and I think we need to have the music industry involved in that and men, the male allies that we keep talking about, because they are there and they do want to help. Thanks, Karen.
SPEAKER_03:Could I answer? Thank you, Sarah.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Could I just yeah, add my two cents quickly? Because I I'm so with you. I feel like the balance between personal responsibility and the expectation of support is something that plagues me often. But I think I'd like to pose the question in return of who gets to succeed if we let go of the idea that we should be funded as artists. Because I think that the arts have been steadily devalued and defunded since about the 70s, and the proportion of working class artists has reduced by at least half since then. And I think I know lots of working class artists that are self-funded who have full-time jobs and fund their careers that way, and it's a tail-chasing recipe for burnout, and I think I am all for finding new and creative ways to fund our careers. It's something that I've had to do by force. Um, but I think it shouldn't be the default. So um bit of both, bit of both. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Um, so I want to make sure we have some other questions. So I think um I'm gonna be naughty. I have a tiny announcement off the back of what you just said, which is that the arts council's just announced uh they've got some RD funding just for artists that doesn't require match funding for the next few months, by the way, for any experimenters in the room. And um my question who's it for? I don't know. I'll say it and then see. So, skills, experiences and perspectives. What skills, experiences, and perspectives can women and gender diverse people bring to sonic experimentation and production that maybe a classic cis, straight white male, I'm gonna add abled producer, maybe can't often access what are the sort of superpowers? Great, that great question. I'm gonna put that to Glade. Great.
SPEAKER_02:It's a great question. I think when it comes to superpowers, intuition is probably up there for me when it comes to the like spaces that I work with and in. I feel that uh the women and gender minorities that we work with have an innate um connection to what they need to express. That when I I have worked in male spaces, um, not not to make it so binary, but when I have, um, I felt like um it might take, especially in younger men, that it takes a little bit more drawing out. Um, but I feel like with the communities that we work with and for um intuition and just a true um sharing of resources and allowing yourself to be a student without any sort of notion of um I'll keep knocking this, um, without any notion of inferiority. Um that's I think that's the unique superpower that we we have in our communities.
SPEAKER_04:Awesome. Thank you, Blade. Thank you for the question as well. Um any other questions? Yes, please come and uh Karen can pass you the microphone.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, Karen. Thank you very much. Um mine's kind of off the back of uh Sarah. Sarah, isn't it? Yes, yes, Sarah. Um with regards to financial um things, and that as an as artists and as producers and in all the different capacities, we're all starting from nothing and we've grown our businesses and our talents and skills and everything in whatever capacity. Uh I'm briefly, maybe if I'm allowed to ask everyone, because it's kind of um for all of you, at what point, if you can remember, do you remember going from I'm so giving, especially as a as a woman, that you're giving your time free, and someone will always come out of the woodwork and go, Can you just do this? Can you just write this? Can you just oh I want this song written? Can you just and at what point did you all go, right? Well, I'm gonna start monetizing this. And how did you decide to place yourself within that based on in in imposter syndrome as well? Because that's gonna be a thing of like, oh well, I'll just charge less because X, Y, and Z reasons in your own head. Um so not understanding yourself, but at what point did you all kind of go, do you know what? I I'm worthy of my rates, my charge, whatever I I'm deserving here. And yes.
SPEAKER_04:Excellent question. Thank you very much. Well, let's just do a sweep then, and we'll try and keep it brief.
SPEAKER_08:Okay. Um I think personally for me, as a you know, as a producer and of the Orim Awards, um, I did a course called the Women Women Leader Network, no, music leaders network course during lockdown. Um and it was so inspiring. Number one, I didn't think I was I was that person. I didn't think I was a leader, I didn't think I was a woman, I didn't like any of those words. Was like, no, this is not for me. But it was so for me. It was so for me, it was ridiculous. And from doing that, I'm now, you know, I do panels, um, I talk about vulnerability, I talk openly about how hard it is. Um, I don't shy away from talking about, you know, the funding crisis, but I also, you know, really I I love what I do so much. I'm so passionate about it, and I know that and all the artists that I work with are just beautiful and they're doing so many amazing projects. I could do this all day, every day, and that's what I say, and I keep saying that. So I think actually being being mentored and being coached myself, and with when I thought I didn't, I wasn't that woman, was the change in me to be like this, I'm stepping up, and I wouldn't be on this panel without doing that course.
SPEAKER_01:So mine's a slightly more kind of unique answer because this was a necessity being the mother of invention, because when the pandemic hit, I was halfway through a tour, so I lost all I lost everything. Or like anyone who tours solo as an independent artist, nationally or internationally, knows that you recoup what you invest in the second half and it was all gone. So I was fucked. So after I decided to become a producer, I had to start charging as soon as I could because I had no choice and I really had to front it in terms of confidence, and I had to trust that it was enough, and also accept that I might bomb a few times because we get nervous to make mistakes, don't we? From a professional perspective. Like, you know, we get we get nervous that we might lose a client. Oh no, there might be another client though. Um, so I probably did maybe two um two kind of free producer projects before I then took on my first paid producer project. And to be fair, that uh that one actually came to me because um an artist came to me who wanted a remix and had a little budget of a hundred quid. And I was like, well, I have no money, so that feels wonderful. Um, so that was the first paid job. And that got that got released, it's out, it's on vinyl now, it's floating around in the world. And um, but that was a case of I didn't really have a choice except to just bet on myself because there wasn't anybody else. But admittedly, I had already been a musician for quite some time. So there was that sense of I do kind of know what I'm doing. Let's let's be the wedding crasher and see how far I get. And and it worked. And I think there's there's something to that mentality that can kind of push you forward if you're if you give yourself permission to make mistakes and to do it whilst being paid.
SPEAKER_04:Um, I think similarly to Jenny, for me it kind of came out of just absolute bare necessity. Um, where for me I I'd been sort of ill for years, and then it reached a point where it was utterly debilitating, you know. So I couldn't speak, I couldn't write, I couldn't type, I couldn't text. And leading up to that, I hadn't been able to sit down for two years because of chronic pain. And I'd been lolloping along, like trying to finish my PhD, which was my income because I got funding, and then also lolloping along, trying to kind of keep my music career doing going, which had been for an independent artist going very, very well on lots of fronts, and so it was obviously heartbreaking to walk away from that. Um, I was on PIP for a year, I think. And then even though I was really ill, really, really ill, but I knew that I was probably going to be taken off it, and I went to the assessment and it became clear that because I wasn't literally shaking in the corner, I could pick up a pint of milk once. That was one of the tests that told them that I which you know I was well enough to work, apparently. You you literally had to be falling apart on multiple levels. So I was kind of looking um at the future and and thinking, right, I'm gonna get this minuscule pip payment taken away. I I'm pretty much locked in due to chronic pain. What can I do? And it was bare necessity of like, right, I have some knowledge now of self-releasing, of recording and producing albums. Maybe I could, you know, offer some mentoring. And so I did a tiny amount of that just because obviously I couldn't do a lot of it. Um, and then I ended up gradually my health got a little bit better, a little bit better, moved back to England, um, got a job lecturing um in a couple of music industry colleges, and so I was in that system then of being on a zero hours contract, um, having no security, um, being paid okay, but it was really exhausting going up and down, and I was still obviously dealing with health issues, and I really knew that really I needed to be not doing that, I needed to be at home or whatever. And I was seeing students taking out huge loans to pay for these courses, and I was once again the only woman in the room, but this time I was teaching the class, and I had this real sinking feeling of like, oh god, it's Never gonna end. Like this is never gonna end. So it was kind of coupled with not being well enough to find that income elsewhere, not really not knowing how I would turn this into an income anyway at that point. But also seeing the kind of the music tech education model and seeing, well, hang on a minute. I think I could make a better course that served women better, and it was a fraction of the cost for those women, and that would then pay me directly, and I would have just as much precarity that I would own all the copyright, the assets, the income, I'd be able to make all the choices. So, you know, it comes back to funding a little bit, a bit of a tangent. But you know, girls twiddling knobs doesn't have any funding. It's never had any funding, it's never had any investment. It's all been about me making products, making them in a way that I know actually solves a problem that people actually have, and then learning and really, really learning. How do you then communicate that to people in such a way that they'll put their hand in their pocket, pay you, and hopefully have an amazing experience that blows them out, blows their minds, and they're like, oh my god, that was the problem. It was the music tech education culture was the problem, not me. So um, and I could speak about that a lot, and we don't have time for that. Um, and you know, that that income that, like I said, is not funded, it's not invested, that has sustained me full-time for the last five years, and all those team members, uh, part-time, I should say, but all those team members that I mentioned as well. So it's no no mean feat. Um, and this is why I am I am pissed off that there is not more investment, and I am pissed off that there is not more sponsorship, and you know, that there's blank walls when I've ever reached out for it. But um, to come back, that that is why I I kind of I felt shit scared charging for my time, my expertise. I still do sometimes, and I just have accepted that that's my conditioning, and that is the conditioning of the industry that we live in because or that we work in, because I I do hear your point. There's a almost a learned helplessness amongst us as artists. I have felt it myself as an artist. Um, I think there's also lots and lots of external barriers and challenges that are real, and I think that learned helplessness comes from that too. Um but I I just didn't have I I had to get over that in some way because otherwise um I just don't know what I would have done.
SPEAKER_03:My professional boundaries surrounding my worth are ever a work in progress. But if there was a point, I think it was also the pandemic, I'm hearing the pandemic come up a lot. Um, when I got myself my first ever corporate nine to five job. And yeah, that was kind of born out of a realization that music as a career was just not feasible at that point, um, or at least not in the way that I wanted to pursue it. And for a while I was quite content. I was like, I didn't see myself here, but you know, trench coat, Proseco Thursdays, like um, I could get used to this. Um, but then and you know, the CEO loved me. She um, you know, um I was doing a part-time master's at that time. She was like, give up your masters, come to us, we you know, we'll look after you, it's gonna be great, like you're fabulous, you're such a talent. And it was completely unrelated to my music career, but I I was quite good at it. But if I do say so myself, but um then uh I did, yeah, I gave a lot of myself to that job, and I think at some point, I don't know, some some financial troubles and my fixed term contract was not renewed, and they were like, We'd love to keep you on, but but freelance, and this was like, I don't know, a year into this career. I was like, that's quite unusual. Um, but I had this incredible, and you know, that that that was a moment of realizing like no corporate job really cares about you, and that's just a fact. Um and or they can't, they can't care about you as much as they need to care about survival. Um, that is the system that we're in. But I had this amazing mentor who kind of within the company um who was kind of easing my transition from like secure corporate baddie to like freelancer. And at that point I was like, okay, how do I charge enough money that I can like slowly I can buy my time back and slowly transition into the career that I originally wanted to do. So I charged honestly, and this took a lot of persuasion from my mentor, way more than the odds for my experience. But somehow I pulled it off and I was like, um, so that for me was a tool, and it's you know, still a brilliant skill set. I think it taught me a lot about treating my work and my output as a business, which I think again is echoing a lot of what I've heard here. And like, what are my skills? How can I sell them so that I can buy back my time to work on the things that matter to me? So yeah, that that's my story.
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah, thinking it's really interesting thinking about this question because I never thought about it in this way. Um, I felt like I've been delusional for about 30 years. When I was like 14, because I'm from the Midlands. Yeah. We've got another. Where are you from? Duningan. Oh, Northampton, amazing. Um there too. Um yeah, small town, not much going on. I remember walking into like a local youth center at like 15 um and just selling my services. I remember just being like, I can teach dance or music or anything you want. And they're like, Yeah, sure, we've got some budget for that. And they said, How much do you want? And I was like, I don't know, like 50 pounds an hour. And this was like at 15. And I just plucked that number out of my head because I thought that's enough to like go out with my friends on the weekend. That's more than enough to go out with my friends on the weekend. Um, and they just said yes. And I think it was a weird thing where I learned so early on that you can just ask, and in the right rooms, there'll be someone with a budget that's left over that will say yes to you. Um, and I think I've got that delusion from my dad actually. He's like 75 and like will write a song and be like, This is this one's gonna go. Like, I promise. Um, and he he literally believes that. And I think that that belief and that sort of drive was like instilled in me from really young. Um, and I think also like growing up, I studied dance university. Um, dance as an industry is even worse than music. Um, and dancers often give their lives, their bodies, to like a 30, no, not even a 30, like a 15-year window of their lives, and then if it doesn't take off, they can't use any of the skills they required. And they normally paid peanuts for like eight-hour days that are like athletes would be paid like 15 times more. So, anyway, I was around a lot of like dance funding talks, dance theatre talks when I was growing up, seeing the models that it worked in. So, then to go from that into DJing, which is very different to producing, DJing is all about like brands throwing money at you in today's day and age. Um, so it's just such an interesting conversation because I've had such a different experience in terms of the money, it doesn't come um every year in the same way. And I I think when I started understanding that the DJ industry had a lot of money to give in the brand space, um, that was probably around five years ago, around COVID as well, because the brands were really ramping up um around Black Lives Matter and around um, yeah, just like gender inclusion in any business. They were like, we need a woman of colour DJing our Christmas party, like that has to happen, and it's been like that every yeah. Um, so yeah, it's like I'll take it, I'll play Paul Simon for three hours. Um so yeah, I think that's been my experience. It and I I also have this like perspective around money that if I'm not getting paid, somebody else is, and I really do believe that. I think that there is money as an energy source that if one year I don't get paid as much, I believe that somebody in our community is. Um of course there is like a highly that I am against taking all the money in the music industry, but when it comes to year on year, there's some years I might charge more, and some years I might need to charge less, and that's okay. Um, and just trying to reckon with yourself every year to figure out how much you're giving, how much you're taking. And um, yeah, I think it's a really different experience in the DJ industry, though, because so much of it is about service and not art. So it's almost like you're working in the hospitality industry as well. So there is a level of you do just show up and do the job they want you to do, and then there's the other side of DJing, which is a lot more about like producing and curation. And I'm involved in both worlds, and it's important to when I'm doing my own thing, not have a limit on that as much and just try and be creative. And if it makes money great, if it doesn't, still do it, like because at some point it will compound. Um, but when it comes to brands and service and hospitality type events, um, yeah, just knowing my worth enough to know this is a big company in the middle of Mayfair, I should probably ask them for more than I'd ask anywhere else, and just applying that logic um anywhere I go. So, yeah, it's a really interesting journey, but I do believe in delusion as an artist. You do have to be a little bit deluded and just go for it. You never know what they're gonna say, basically.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna make a resource back. Yes, yeah. Just a very quick resource recommendation. Um, no one in the music industry has taught me anything about business in the way that one podcast has, which is called the Six Figure Creative. And this podcast, unfortunately, it's two Sis Dudes, so it's listening to more cis dudes on podcasts. Oh my god. But um, one of the guys who co-founded it, I think I think it's actually the main guy who co-founded it, used to run a music studio. And so he is he's talking to creatives in general. So it doesn't matter, obviously, if you're not a producer, it's fine. He he's aware that it's some of the people are photographers, some people are doing this and that. But it's to do with getting into like a freelance mindset in terms of your creativity and how to integrate those two things in a way that doesn't necessarily feel like you're compromising your sense of artistic integrity for cash. So it's a it's a kind of a it's a kind, it's a kind but clear podcast that kind of touches on what does it look like for us to think about what we're doing as a business. Um, and it's literally a free resource, it's like hundreds of hours of podcasts by this person and their kind of guests. Um, and it gave me a lot of the tools to do what I'm doing now.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you, Jenny. Great. Um, I'm mindful of time, so I think we're gonna have to wrap the panel up because I also need to summarize and do thank yous and just close the space um before we uh probably go there and have more drinks. Um so thank you so much to Karen, to Jenny, to Syl, to Glade.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for sharing and to you, Isabel, and for mine.
SPEAKER_04:So I hope that you enjoyed listening to that panel discussion. Um I think it's very true to Girls Thrilling Knob style that it was so honest and off the cuff and authentic and and like I said before, just fun and a bit silly sometimes. Um it's something I've really valued about the conversations we've had here over the last five years. Um I don't have tried to make the conversations as kind of open and real as possible because I don't think it's helpful when everything is just presented with a very kind of standardized professional sheen. It's always difficult listening back to yourself on panel discussions or very off-the-cuff conversations. Like sometimes I'm worry, I worry that I'm too um on the nose, and sometimes it loses the complexity and the nuance which I get to have when I pre-plan or script out episodes here. But I basically stand by what I said, um, but maybe you know there's there's a bit more kind of grey in there as well. Um before you go, I want to just make sure that I have shared what is gonna come up in the podcast over the next couple of episodes. So before we wrap the podcast up at the end of December, I'm gonna share I'm not sure exactly how many yet. No more than four, no more than four more episodes on the podcast. And this is basically gonna be a final season of the podcast. I guess this episode that I've just shared with you kind of falls into that too. So this final season is gonna be called Why Are You Closing Girls Twiddling Knobs, comma, Isabel question mark. And that's because it's a question I've been asked a lot since I've been telling people and announced it and been asking myself. Um it's a difficult question to answer in one easy answer. It's a complex one, and it's taken a lot of soul searching and time and experiences to come to the place where I am closing girls' twilling knobs. And it hasn't been an easy decision to make, but it absolutely feels like the right one, and it feels like it's come from a very empowered place. So, over the next uh, like I said, three to four episodes, I'm gonna be sharing from a few different perspectives my answer to that question. Why are you closing girls twiddling knobs as a baby? So I'm gonna try and come at it from the sort of industry perspective. I'm gonna try and come at it from the um kind of business perspective, just the operational perspective of running something like this. I'm also gonna come at it from a very personal perspective of what it means to be the person or a person heading up an initiative, an organization, a business like this. And uh this is all very fresh. I'm kind of um very much like running things off the cuff at the moment, which I'm kind of here for. So I I may have some people come and help me explore those things, depends on their um availability. Um but I would like one episode to be one where I can answer any questions you have. Hopefully, nothing too sort of boring and practical. If you have boring practical questions like how can I listen to the podcast, I guess that's a useful one to answer again and again because people will want to know. But preferably that these questions might be something around my decision to close Girls Twiddling Knobs, what it's been like starting it, what it's been like sustaining it, what I've learned, not just about uh the whole issue of music tech and gender, but maybe also about um you know, things that all artists seem to be kind of struggling with right now. Um how has it changed my relationship to my practice? Like these are all things that you might want to ask. I would obviously you know, I would like to be able to answer questions that are helpful for you, that you you know, it'd help you to know the answer to those questions. So basically, yeah, that episode would just be for you to pick my brains. And I will within reason, within reason, I will answer every question you send with honesty and transparency. So that is gonna be an episode. So I think there's gonna be four. God, it might be more than that. That just feels very self-indulgent, but it kind of feels like because Girls Twiddling Knobs has been, and I don't take this lightly, I think it's been really cherished by a lot of people, and it's been a bit of a kind of breath of fresh air for a lot of people, like a lot of these other adjacent projects are. Um, I've already mentioned 2% rising, Saffron, um, Oram Awards, there's also Yorkshire Sound Women Network, there's um music production for women, there's so many now of these wonderful initiatives, and I think they're all like a breath of fresh air, but I really want to honour what girls swiddling knobs may have meant to you and to me, and therefore it's been really important to me to close this project properly and with respect not just to the work but to you if you've listened, if you've taken our programmes, if you've come to a workshop, if you've engaged with our social media feeds, you know, and the conversations that we've shared and posts and you know, all those kinds of things. I want to kind of respect and honour that by actually closing this project slowly and with presence. So that's why I am kind of doing this as like a mini final season. So I just wanted to give you that heads up. If you have a question that you would like to submit to the QA episode I'm going to be doing, um then I will share details of how you can submit your question. But if you're worried that you'll miss those, then you can always email info at femaledi musician.com. Info at femaledi musician.com. And um we can pop that into the question bag when I do that episode. So I'm gonna leave it there. I hope you enjoyed listening to today's panel. If you couldn't come on November the 5th, I hope it's given you a little taste of the the convers one of the conversations we had that night anyway. And do keep uh an ear out for the episodes coming up over the next few weeks.
